So many tell us that Christians should be more accepting of homosexuality. Yesterday, in fact, I listened to Andrew Wilson debate Rob Bell on the UK Unbelievable? radio program about homosexuality and the church. Bell was asked to explain the justification for his beliefs that there is nothing wrong with committed homosexual relationships, and, among other things, he said, “This is sort of the bullshit that really, really, really, pushes people away, is when you have a particular conviction and all of a sudden your orthodoxy or your faithfulness to Jesus is all of a sudden called into question…. This is why so many people don’t want to be a part of the church.”
Indeed, I’ve heard that a lot lately. Something to the effect of, “Christians should be more accepting! If you were, more people would join the church. Instead, you’re driving people away.”
Yes, Christians need to be accepting of those struggling with homosexual inclinations just as it needs to be accepting of those struggling with adulterous inclinations, but was Jesus concerned about making His message more palatable? Consider that in Matthew 7:13-14, Jesus said, “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” And who made “the gate” narrow? Wasn’t it the Lord? In fact, when we read the entire Old Testament, do we ever get the sense that the Lord is willing to compromise His righteousness to draw larger crowds?
Also, in Matthew 8:16 we read that Jesus “healed all who were sick.” No surprise that this would create quite a following! So how does Jesus respond? Look at 8:18-22:
When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake. Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.” Jesus replied, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” Another disciple said to him, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”
Wouldn’t many of today’s counselors advise Jesus that if he really wants to get a large following, then He needs to be more seeker sensitive?! Shouldn’t Jesus accept one persons fear of homelessness and another’s sense of obligation to the deceased as just being real to who they are? But Jesus doesn’t do that.
Similarly in Luke 14:25, we read that Jesus was followed by “great crowds,” and in a not very big-tent moment, he turned and said to them,
If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple. (Lk. 14:26-27, 33).
Wow, “hate your parents and your children” couldn’t have sounded very sensitive! Hate your own life is far, far away from “to your own self be true!”
Here’s one more. In John 6:2 we learn that a “great crowd of people followed him because they saw the miraculous signs he had performed on the sick.” And how does Jesus respond to this great crowd? After he feeds thousands of them, He said:
I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever (John 6:53-58).
So Jesus says to the crowd, “Eat my flesh and drink my blood”? Maybe Jesus didn’t know that that would be a crowd displeaser? Indeed, that didn’t turn out to be seeker-sensitive because His disciples said in v. 60 that, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” And in v. 66 we learn, “From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.”
Would Jesus do well in the average church growth seminar?
Now, all this being said, we must love those who struggle to overcome sin. After all, who doesn’t sin? I certainly do! We absolutely must love those who are struggling to control sinful inclinations. But there’s a big difference between sinning, repenting, and striving to do better and embracing sin and calling it holy in God’s sight. Those who want to baptize what the Bible forbids aren’t seeking forgiveness for failure, they’re approving the unrepentant practice of sin. So many today talk about how they see God as merciful without understanding that if there is no sin—if there is nothing that could be judged—then there is, by definition, no need for mercy.
YOU’RE JUST A BIGOT MCBIGOT PANTS!! PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE THE REASON THE CHURCH WILL DIE!!! YOU’RE NOT WELCOME MCBIGOT BAPTIST!
Caps lock is cruise control for cool.
Does not seem like a “Loving” reply. What is your definition of “Loving”?
The love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control are not evident.
Loving Liberal, do you realize how intolerant you sound? A “bigot” is “a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.” I tolerate those who hold different opinions than me. I just disagree with them.
Do you think Jesus is bigoted?
Jesus wasn’t a bigot-YOU are Dr. Bigot. Jesus didn’t even ADDRESS homosexuality, bigot. Stop putting words in his mouth, if you care about him.
I tolerate other people’s opinions mostly-just not when those opinions resemble Nazi Germany.
@Loving Liberal Matt 19: 4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
What about this statement by Jesus do you not understand?
Actually “Loving”, Christians believe that Jesus is God and that the triune God is eternal. Therefore all those words in the Bible are Jesus’ – including the admonitions against homosexuality.
Jesus also said that He came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. Which law is that? The scriptures were the OT at that time. You can also look at Matthew 15 for his thoughts on sexual immorality and Matthew 19 where he affirms the Genesis 2 concept of marriage.
Homosexualism and other perversions are adultery. Jesus certainly did address that. You should also be aware that most of the Nazi officials were homosexuals, to say nothing of the S.A. You can read about it here: http://www.ukeaho.wordpress.com/s/ .
Actually, Loving Liberal – Jesus did talk about homosexuality….
Matthew 10:14-15
Jesus said “If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.”
Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire from Heaven because of their wickedness. Those who reject the gospel when they hear it will be worse off than the wicked people of these destroyed cities, who never heard the gospel at all. Jesus knew all about Sodom and Gomorrah and what they did, and spoke as such, supporting by comment what occurred.
Matthew 11:23-24
Jesus said “And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of Judgment than for you.”
Sodom was an ancient city with a long-standing reputation for wickedness. It was destroyed by God for its evil. The people of Capernaum saw Jesus firsthand and yet stubbornly refused to repent of their sins and believe in him. Jesus said that if some of the wickedest cities in the world had seen him, they would have repented. Because Capernaum saw Jesus and didn’t believe, they would suffer even greater punishment than that of the wicked cities who didn’t see Jesus.
Great insights brother, just surprised you didn’t attempt to cover up the vulgar language from Mr.Bell (maybe that’s how you do ur blog but this is my first visit).
Ty.
Really? This is your idea of a rebuttal? How old are you?
Post addressed to the capital-letter-loving troll, obviously.
Ad Hominen much, Liberal Lover?
Looks as though Loving Liberal needs some un-narrow gated words to scratch his/her itchy ears (2 Timothy 4:3). I’d rather pray for her/him instead.
Why are conservative Christians so upset over homosexuality? Don’t tell me it’s because it’s in the Bible. There are a lot of things in the Bible you don’t complain about. Stoning of children, cutting your beard, adultery, slavery, weird food practices. I could go on but I think you get my point. Everybody picks and chooses which part of the Bible they want to follow and what parts they don’t. People and societies evolve. We know we shouldn’t stone children anymore and we can treat women with respect and we shouldn’t have slaves. Why is homosexuality still a thing for you?
“There are a lot of things in the Bible you don’t complain about. Stoning of children,”
If people were stoning children, Christians would speak out against that. Wouldn’t you?
“cutting your beard, adultery, slavery, weird food practices.”
Christians’ don’t speak against adultery and slavery? Really? I don’t think you’re paying much attention. as for cutting your beard and “weird food practices,” those regulations are part of the Jewish law. Jesus specifically declared all foods clean (Mark 7:19), so kosher laws are not required for Christians just like circumcision is not. But sexual immorality, including homosexuality, is still forbidden in the New Testament.
“Everybody picks and chooses which part of the Bible they want to follow and what parts they don’t.”
You need to become more informed. The New Testament itself addresses this very issue in Acts 15 and the book of Galatians to name two places where it is addressed very directly. It’s not a matter of just picking and choosing. As Paul writes in Gal. 3:24-25 the Torah (the Jewish Law) was a “tutor” meant to lead us to Christ. But in Christ the tutor is no longer needed. I use this analogy: when I was a small child, I wasn’t allowed to cross the street by myself, only when I was holding the hand of a parent. Later I could cross by myself, but I had to stop, look both ways, and then I could cross if it was safe. Now that I’m an adult, I don’t have rules from my parents about crossing the street. But if I were to just run out into the street without looking, I would be in danger of serious injury or death. That’s the same with the Law. Homosexual behavior is forbidden because it is harmful to those who practice it. But beyond that, the reason Christians address this issue is because society has forced that discussion upon us. I would much rather not talk or even think about it, but in popular culture homosexuality, transgender, and everything else is being talked about 24/7. So Christian have no choice but to speak out about it. People’s souls are too important to stay silent.
I agree with some of your points. But I’d also say that it sounds like you are agreeing with some of mine. If you aren’t following things that are laid out in one part of the Bible because they aren’t needed anymore, then I’d say you are picking and choosing, even if you have St Paul’s permission to. And if St Paul can pick and choose, why can’t we? I believe in a lot of what’s found in the Bible in terms of the spirit of what was intended. I realize that it’s open to interpretation but I think that’s true of the whole book, in fact of Christianity in general. And you just have to look at the amount of different Christian religions who all have their own spin on things to see that I’m not alone in that idea. They believe in core values but even argue about what some of those are. And while I’m not gay, I don’t believe, as it seems like you do, that it’s a choice. I know many gay people and I know many straight people. And they are just wired the way they are wired. I would equate it to height or eye color. You may disagree, but I’d hope you’d agree that there’s certainly not a definitive answer. What is certainly a choice is adultery. And while Leviticus says both the gays who lie together and the adulterers who lie (or is it lay?) together should all be killed, they don’t get the same play with the Christian right. Don’t you see the double standard there? I just think that the interpretation of the Bible has evolved over time as civilization has evolved. Yesteryear stoning children and burning witches was accepted. Yesterday, capturing black men and keeping slaves was accepted. I think it will continue to evolve and I hope that we’ll reach the point where most of us can see through the labels and look at the good in people and embrace them. Even if Leviticus couldn’t back then.
Not because they aren’t needed, but because their purpose was fulfilled. Think of a curfew. Once you reach a certain age, the law no longer applies. Why? Because adults pick and choose which laws to follow? (Well some do-but that’s not the point) No, because the purpose for the law was fulfilled (to mature someone into a responsible adult who can handle themself at night). The purpose of the ceremonial laws (the laws that don’t apply) was the keep Israel separate and distinct from the pagan nations ethnically UNTIL the time of the Messiah. Israel functioned as the culture God created so as to bring the Messiah into the world. Once the Messiah came, the purpose for keeping Israel ethnically distinct (via food and clothing laws) had been fulfilled. THAT’s why they no longer apply. To say we’re picking and choosing is like saying adults, when they violate a curfew that once applied to them, are picking and choosing which laws to follow. It’s just untrue.
The moral laws (the stuff God held all nations accountable for-murder, adultery, child sacrifice, bestiality, homosexuality-still apply to us)
So take the stoning laws. Those don’t apply to the church because the purpose for them (to keep Israel ethnically and politically distinct) has been fulfilled, since they functioned to create a culture into which the Messiah would be born. In the Messiah, God’s people are no longer defined by race, and this aren’t under the theocracy of Israel anymore. The new Israel is the body of both Jew and Gentile defined by faith. So this isn’t picking and choosing or ignoring verses we don’t like-this is taking the Bible at its word (Hebrews 9-food and clothing laws were imposed until the coming of the Messiah, and Romans 13-the government we’re under is supposed to carry out judgment on wrongdoers, not the church)
Well, I enjoyed the conversation. You’ve made your case and I made mine and I think it’s always good to hear different points of view. I don’t care for your view of religion any more than you probably care for mine. There will always be people more conservative than me and more liberal than you. I’ll just leave you with this. We both may be wrong in our interpretations. I wish you all well.
Dave – please understand – the stoning of children law is still active in Christians today. Instead of stoning, it is now abortion. And Christians are speaking out and have been, for decades…. It is just the “tool” for the sin has changed… and apparently the age of the child too…
Hi Clay,
As usual, your words are very relevant in today’s counter-Christian church culture.
Dave – Why do you think that everything reported in the Bible is approved by the Bible? That is a HUGE misstep.
The Apostle Paul set the standard for driving away the unrepentant one who claims to be a Christian. He quotes the Old Testament saying, “A little leaven leavens the whole lump.” The idea being that a little corruption allowed in the church can corrupt the whole congregation. This is what can be seen happening in the letters to the Corinthians. In the second letter we see the man had repented and was accepted back in.
Clearly homosexuality is sinful in both the Old and New Testaments and the Church needs to treat it with Biblical discipline, as mentioned above.
Unfortunately, some Christians do have a hard time ministering to gays. One woman at my Sunday class asked, “How can we minister to them? How can we show the love of God to them?” as if they are fundamentally different somehow from any other sinners.
I wondered, “Why is this even a question?” and “How do you minister and love any other sinner?”
The biggest obstacle is that Christians have come to accept and to believe in the cultural concept of sexual identity – the belief that sexual desires define who and what a person is. Such a belief is unbiblical, yet it affects how they interpret the Bible. According to the Bible, people have desires, but people are not their desires.
Karen, I think part of the problem here for Christians is the way the sin itself is celebrated in the culture. Sinful behaviours have by and large been legislated against, which has made it easy for us to interact with fellow sinners without having to address their (or our) sins head on. But when it is your aunt marrying another woman, (or your friends’ dad becoming one)… And they say how happy and excited they are on the wedding invitation…this is new territory for all of us.
Thanks Clay for speaking out. You help me out a lot in understanding the issues and thinking critically. Thank you Clay for taking the flack as you seek to strengthen the believer in the truth and present answers for the reason you believe.
So much could be said concerning this whole topic. From my perspective “as an atheist before coming to Jesus,” I will say the following to myself as a believer, and also to the church:
1. Keep speaking the truth for if you compromise and are just like the world, then you really have nothing to offer, and are like the blind leading the blind, and worse yet, if you are the church and are not preaching the truth, then you would be deceivers that are giving people a false comfort.
2. I so often hear about the evils of homosexuality, but why is it that you do not preach with the same fervor the evils of pride and self-righteous attitudes that the church so often has?
3. Why is it that you as the church put so much time and effort into politics when Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world? If the church cares so much for people and believe they are perishing, then why is it they seem to do so little? You preach the evils of abortion, why does there seem to be so little the church is doing in helping out these individuals, why are crisis pregnancy centers underfunded? Why aren’t there more believers ministering to the poor, to people with AIDS, etc.
4. Finally, we need you to show us by your lifestyle that you really believe what you say you believe!
Anyway, I do not mean this as a rebuke to Clay or to any believer in particular or who has posted. It is just some of the thoughts that as an unbeliever I had and/or would have.
Christian,
“Now the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly: and your whole spirit, and soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” – 1 Thess. 5:23
Amen Gary! I think the gay issue is getting too much attention in some ways. If we are unable to show the love of Messiah to anybody, His Spirit is no longer leading us. But I must add that there is a huge effort by the world to try and convince the church that it is no longer wrong or sinful; the problem is, even if all churches would agree to this, would that change the mind of God who created human-kind male and female? And we would stand with blood on our hands for every sinner that we encouraged in his/her sin while knowing what the Bible says about sin. And self-righteousness and pride, the very sins Jesus spoke most about, are rampant in the church today. May the Lord have mercy on us and deliver us from this evil!
Gary,
Why do you say “If the church cares so much for people and believe they are perishing, then why is it they seem to do so little?”
Did you know that more charities and services and ministries to the family, the poor, the homeless and the hungry are provided by the church than any government organization? Services like Mercy Ships, MAF, and so many missionary organizations that are both here locally, nationally, and definitely internationally. And most dedicate 90% of all their provisions to the service, whereas most government services are closer to 50%.
I think the problem is that most people do not spend the time to research and find out all that the Christian church actually does in the world. We provide schools, hospitals, doctor services, housing, food, clothing, etc. to many countries and many races. The media never represents nor reports on these things because as we have seen over and over, it isn’t news worthy unless there is some bad thing happening in it…
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Great insights brother, just surprised you didn’t attempt to cover up the vulgar language from Mr.Bell (maybe that’s how you do ur blog but this is my first visit).
Ty.